For the Creatives: How to Lead, Collaborate & Trust Your Voice

What if the most important part of your creative journey is not your talent. It is your people.

In this episode of Coffee with E, Erica sits down with three powerhouse creatives, Julia Mallory, Robert Green and Aubrea Thompson, for a raw conversation about creativity, collaboration, leadership and finding your tribe.

They talk about growing up creative, being misunderstood, balancing jobs and art, trying to make money without losing your soul, and why knowing your why matters more than any trend on social media. They also break down what real collaboration looks like, how to protect your time and energy and how to keep going when you feel like you are failing.

✨ In This Episode

•Creativity as a lifestyle, not just a hobby

•How to support young creatives instead of shutting them down

•The tension between art, money and capitalism

•Real collaboration versus free unpaid work

•Social media trends, authenticity and not chasing every fad

•Failing forward and learning to pivot with grace

•How to find or build your creative community

•Why your why is the anchor that keeps you from getting lost

💡 Featured Creatives

•Julia Mallory - Poet, author, visual artist and founder of Black Mermaids and 1006.

•Robert Green - Creative in the beauty and visual arts space and costume designer.

•Aubrea Thompson - Photographer, studio builder and CEO of A. Thompson Visuals and Creative Studios.

🕊 Phoenix Foundation

Because of your support, the Phoenix Foundation helps survivors of domestic violence secure permanent housing with down payment and closing cost assistance. Your listens and shares help fuel that mission.

🔗 Sponsored by:

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Chavis Law Firm: https://www.chavislawfirm.com/ 

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💼 Powered by The Erica Rawls Team: https://ericarawls.com/ 

💬 Like this episode. Leave a review and share it with a creative person who needs to know they are not behind. They just need the right community.

🔔 Subscribe for more real life conversations about growth, purpose and building a life that actually fits you.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Opening And Self-Discipline Roast
• 0:58 Meet The Creatives At The Table
• 4:36 Early Sparks And Parental Support
• 8:12 Freedom, Sacrifice, And Making The Leap
• 12:08 Nurturing Young Creators Without Suppression
• 17:25 Art Versus Trends And Authenticity
• 23:35 Sponsors And Staying True To Your Audience
• 27:24 Redefining Success And The Power Of Small Numbers
• 32:53 Strategy, Why, And The Pivot Mindset
• 39:59 Hobby To Business To Sustainable Practice
• 45:02 Place-Based Creative Infrastructure
• 50:20 Spaces, Access, And Encouraging Risk
• 55:28 Perception, Failure In Public, And Courage
• 1:00:05 Capacity, Plans, And Realistic Timelines
• 1:05:18 What Collaboration Really Means
• 1:11:24 Value, Boundaries, And Saying No
• 1:16:10 Leadership, Influence, And Using Strengths

Transcript

Erica Rawls: 0:00

Hey you! Today's episode is for all the creatives. You know, those visionaries, those people that just can make something out of absolutely nothing, and yet you may not feel supported. This episode, we talk about collaboration, we talk about leadership, we've learned, we're talking about raising people up. I mean, all the things. If you're looking to learn how to be creative and to find your people, this is the episode. Tune in today's roast, self-discipline isn't punishment. It's proof. It's proof that you can trust yourself to make the right decision so that you can truly fund the life you want to live. What do you mean by that? Well, this is the season, y'all, where you're going to be itching to buy everyone and everything something, but your bank account may say otherwise. Can I share with you? Figure out a way to provide them some gifts that cost you zero dollars or minimum dollars that won't break the bank. Because I promise you, after the Christmas season, you're gonna have buyer's remorse, you're going to be sad, you're gonna be anxious, and you're just gonna feel depressed as far as being depressed. And that is not something that you want to do because I promise you, self-discipline is gonna give you the sense of security that you need, and you're gonna build self-trust. And that right there is a beautiful thing. Okay, y'all. I want to thank you all for having this opportunity to talk to creatives, because you know, I don't know if you know this or not, but y'all are my spirit animals, and this is why. Because I love people that have the ability to create something out of nothing. Like give them a clear slate, whether it's music, whether it's words, whether it's photos, whatever it is. I just love that. So, of course, we have to have the opportunity just to sit around and have a conversation with you all. So let's get into it. Before we do that, I think it's really important that people one know who you are, right? Because, um, and also the work that you've done. So that they know that you all have done the darn thing. Because no one sits on our chair and have coffee with E unless you have done the darn thing in your community, right? So Albre, you gotta start. Start. Let's do this.

Aubrea Thompson: 2:16

Okay. So, how are you? I'm Aubrea Thompson. I am the owner and CEO of Creative Studios, A Thompson Visuals, um, a lot of other things. But today we're gonna start stay with the creators next. Yes, I'm a creative. Um, I've done so many things. I have built studios, warehouses, taken slates of nothing, and built walls, rooms, sets, uh I mean, photos. It gets to the point where I mean you can have a red dress on and now you have a green gown on. I'm a Photoshop extraordinaire. I do a lot of things creatively. Yeah. Uh one thing they say, you know, I don't work jobs, I am a job. So I just like to, you know, I pride myself in, you know, uh not being conventional, you know, as a creative or even being a trailblazer. It's like, what do I do? What's my path? But it's also a situation where, you know, just me creating is enough for me to, you know, live my life financially, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and I appreciate that.

Erica Rawls: 3:24

You know, all of that too. Yeah, pretty. I'm not that's right. Yeah, we won't get into all of that. Yes, Mr. Green.

Robert Green: 3:30

Yeah, thank you for the opportunity. I'm Robert Green, and I wear a man of many hats, but I have I dabble in the beauty industry. I am also a creative with art and visual art. I'm a costume designer, and I wear a few other hats, but we can get into that later.

Erica Rawls: 3:47

Yeah, I love that, Miss Julia Mallory.

Julia Mallory: 3:51

So my name is Julia Mallory, and um I am a I always say poetry is my first creative love language. Um, it's the creative practice that I've had the longest, but I am also a I write fiction. Um, I'm the founder of Black Mermaids, which is a creative container. Um I also have a space in Harrisburg called 106, which is a multi-generational community uh cultural gathering space. Um, emerging filmmaker, um, visual artist, collages. So we can, you know, we'll touch on a lot of those facets later, but um yeah, those are those are some of the lanes I'm moving in.

Erica Rawls: 4:33

Yeah. So how did you all get into the creative space? I mean, because I mean, did it fall in your lap?

Robert Green: 4:38

I was born here. You were born here, okay. I have been drawing and creating since I was probably about two years old. Really? And some of my earliest memories are telling the teachers in school what was gonna happen, whether it was during the school plays or just creating things. Uh Mother actually gave me the ability to draw on our window each Christmas and I would paint that. Uh so I paint scenes on our window as early as three years old. So wow. And this creative stuff.

Erica Rawls: 5:06

That is awesome. And I wonder if anyone that's young or have young children, do they see their children as being creatives? And if so, do you think your parents actually channeled you into it?

Robert Green: 5:16

I think so, because I was born in a time where we didn't have iPads or, you know, things that we could really embrace those skills with. And so I was provided all of the tools, whether it was just seeing other artists or reading books that were centered around artist and creation. So I was even sculpting that early as well.

Erica Rawls: 5:36

I love that. So you think that there's a lot of parents that may have little children that may not know what to do, like they're restless or may not know how to curb their appetite for creativeness, like they like to draw, or they like to draw on the walls, or they like to do things. They're just like, what in the world is going on?

Robert Green: 5:50

Like Yes. Yeah, I I absolutely think those parents should kind of embrace that and figure out a medium that works best for both the child and them and maybe even their household. But I think the earlier you get into and dabble with things, the easier it is to zero in on what makes you, what, what drives you or what inspires you.

Speaker 1: 6:08

Yeah. Yeah. So do go ahead. Uh just allowing yourself to be free. You know, it's creativity is something where it's like, I don't know what to expect out of this. Because there's plenty of times where I've created and I'm like, well, I want A through E, and I end up getting elemental P out of the situation. So, you know, creativity just brings a different type of freedom. I do thank my parents because I mean, I'm an only child, so they had no choice but to let me do whatever I wanted to do. But some of that automatically that was going to be what it was. But I thank them because a lot of times, even when they would let me try, they would let me do different things, and then whatever stick, they would let it stick. And they knew when I was serious, because like I promise you, I've had so many jobs even prior to doing photography full time. And it's like, I'd love that my parents see that I'm very dedicated to this and the journey. Even as an adult, I'm 31 years old, and still they're like, Oh, you need me to rip up some books. My dad's like, you need me to drill something into the wall for you or do something.

Speaker 3: 7:08

Yeah, yeah.

Aubrea Thompson: 7:09

That's just to be with it. They're with it. Listen, so I just thank goodness, you know, it's never a time where you know, don't ever stop with the creativity, even having friends that support you. I thank God for Robbie and Julia because there's so many times where I'm like, How y'all feel about this? And they're like, do it, go ahead, do it. So, you know, just having that parents in a supportive friend group to vacuum it and let you be free with your creativity is 100% important.

Erica Rawls: 7:35

I would think a lot of times the parents would be afraid of their child being in that space because there's you think of, okay, the struggle, no money, do how long we need to support them. You know what I mean? Because it's gonna take because I heard you say I had a lot of jobs before I got into where you are right. With you, but you weren't happy. I mean, you didn't stick into it because it wasn't what your calling was. Right, right. So having the faith and having the support system means a lot.

Speaker 1: 7:59

Yeah, and the money of the jobs helped too, because I was saving up, and then that's how that listen. That's how that helped you now. That's how that helped. Because listen, I was at the post office for eight long years, okay? I didn't know you were there that long. Yeah, eight years from literally 20 to 28. Wow, we don't know that you read it. No, you stuff with that. Yep, working overnight. Yep. And it got to the point where it was like, okay, when I started making more money, I started traveling more, I started doing more things. I was like, all right, y'all, we out. But I had to save up a lot of money. I had to sacrifice a lot of things. And I think that's another thing too. Starting off is nothing wrong with sacrificing.

Robert Green: 8:37

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:37

Like a lot of people see, like, okay, well, they made it. I was just with them last week and they were struggling. And now, look, they it's like pop, but it's like, nah, I'm still struggling a little bit, but it's still a little struggle, but it's a little better now. So that's why I say, you know, sacrifice is important no matter what stage you go through. Sacrifice is important. But I think like back to the idea around parents or supporting young people that are creative, because I think the dilemma is a couple of things. One, I feel like our children are brought through here like with their own assignment. And I think that um, like it's our job to figure out how to nurture that. And so sometimes, you know, creativity is not something that just stops at, like, oh, I made a creative product, right? It's a it's a way of thinking, it's a lifestyle in a certain kind of way. Absolutely. So young people who are like little kids are always, if they have the opportunity to be creative, they're coming up with all types of scenarios and doing all types of things. Um, and then we kind of start to curb that and ask them to be more conventional in their approach to things, right? Then we start getting to like, oh, that's not realistic. Um, but like nothing is realistic until it's done. Right.

Erica Rawls: 9:50

And then you'll see unhappy, they're depressed, or you're wondering why they're acting out is because you're not allowing them to be who they truly are. Right.

Speaker 1: 9:57

I think the suppression is so huge. And I think a lot of times, like we're always asking each other to suppress ourselves, right? So that we can be comfortable with each other, but then like nobody's really comfortable, no one's really real. Right. No one gets to really be themselves because we're asking people to put on this mask. And I think like when we can exercise our creativity early on and it'd be a through line, I think it's an easy, for example, like even with poetry, right? I think even the practical uses, like, so sometimes I remember doing a workshop at a job that I had, and um, I was teaching them this short poetic form. But I was like, oh, you can also use this as a way to crystallize like sentences for a great application, right? So trying to get people to take something that's big and be very precise in applying the language. So even if somebody's like, oh, I'm not a poet, but we can still learn techniques, right? I'm not a photographer, but I still know how to maybe frame a good picture, right? I'm not a costume designer, but I know that, you know, this is a good fabric or not a good fabric. So there's gonna be different ranges, but I think when we suppress that in young people or don't let them thrive, because I think, you know, being at this age that I am, there's so much that I'm exposed to that I might meet some young people in the world and they're already doing that at half my age. And like for even kids in our community, yes, I will want the same thing for them, that there's also this other, there's this other creative lanes that are less conventional. So like I make experimental films where people might not want to go watch it like at Midtown Cinema or at AMC, but there's an audience for them, you know? But if you only focus on like, oh, only people like if only this, this, this facet of people can identify with it, then it doesn't have any value. So I think just allowing people to find ways to express themselves, the work will find an audience at some point. But I sometimes worry how quickly we are to dismiss things just because we don't readily connect with it. Um, and I think as like a a parent or a caregiver or someone who is working with and for young people, we have to be okay with like, I don't know what that means. But yeah, you know, like they sure like it's not like it's not something that's harmful to them, right? It's like, oh, I don't understand that, but it's like, oh, that's because maybe you're not the target audience, right? Right? Sure. Like I think about some artists who say, like, there's this jazz musician, Sunra, and you know, one of his band leaders was saying, Oh, like this stuff is pretty far out here that you want us to play. And so he was like, Yeah, because I'm making music, you know, for the 21st century. Right. Right. This was back in the he this is he's saying this isn't like in the 20th century. So he's like, Oh, people right now might not even understand it, but I'm making music for the future. Right. And so I think sometimes we have to be thinking about that too, like even being able to do our work. But when you mentioned like scarcity and money and the starving artists, it's like, oh, artists wouldn't starve if we actually supported them. Yes. Right in a society that says there's value in these things that we do, um, right, in the same way that we value other things or if people shared more. Like we there wouldn't be this the so-called scarcity, right? We create that by not supporting people.

Erica Rawls: 13:20

Sorry, 100%. I had to take two seconds to interrupt this episode. I would like to thank one of our most recent guests, attorney Jenny Chavis, for sponsoring this show. Chavis Law Firm is an elite law firm in central Pennsylvania that helps with estate planning as well as understanding what type of business entity you should enter into when starting your business. If you're looking for a great attorney that understands estate planning as well as business entity, how to start the right way, you want to check out attorney Chavis, Chavis Law Firm. Now, back to the show.

Speaker 1: 13:53

She said so many good things. So many. What does my target audience want to see? And that's sometimes where I had to step out. And again, this is where I say all the time, I'm pivot queen. Because I, you know, one week y'all gonna see her in her bodysuit, and the next week you're gonna see somebody worshiping, raising hands on my page and then maternity. But it's just, I try not to make my art so business like. You know, I run a business, but at the end of the day, I'm a creative. So that doesn't run me. I run what I need to do. My art is what I share. So when people say to me, you know, business-wise, because again, we do have to be business owners as well, it's like, well, what's your demographic? I'm like, art. Like people that enjoy art, people that want to make art, people that want to be amused, people that love, you know, what who they are and what they're doing. And that's who my target audience is. That's who my demographic is. And it's just a situation where I think we do suppress our art sometimes or try to, and I try not to, but I get victim to it too sometimes, where it's like, maybe I shouldn't post that because I don't think they're gonna like that. I'm trying to run my bands up real quick. You know, it's just a situation where you have to be um, again, a creative and continue to be creative. And even though you're running a business and you want money, again, somebody's gonna come to you. Like you said, we just need to support.

Robert Green: 15:17

You just that's you know, sometimes even relying on the fact that your audience will find you. Right. And your audience could be in Pennsylvania, your audience could be in another country, but and you're creating art from your heart. You're actually just allowing yourself to be. Sometimes you get lost in that. And when your audience finds you, sometimes it's that those three likes that you all will always come through online, or it's that one painting that you sell behind the scenes that really makes a difference because your audience will find you. You know, I've met a number of my friends just by by my presentation, how how I look when I come into a room and they'll say, Oh, I love your jacket, oh, I love this, I love that. And that'll be the conversation starter. So then opening up the the uh the conversation to being, you know, this is what I do, this is what drives me, this is what I like, it it will make a lot of that a lot easier than just kind of worrying about what makes money or how I'll make money, because I think that stuff will come to you.

Erica Rawls: 16:11

I mean, you see a lot of people fail. You see a lot of people fail when they try to be something that they're not, right? Absolutely. So just being authentic in the space that you're in instead of trying to look for likes. When you said that that hit like a big chord, because I see it even in our industry in real estate, they're trying to keep it with the latest fads instead of trying to figure out, okay, who am I, right? And who is my target audience? Yours is art, artists, right? Right. You don't care, right? With age, with demographic, with national, whatever. So I find that a lot, even in our industry, they want to just do whatever the latest fad is and they get lost because they're not um bringing in the right people because they're not being authentic to who they really are. Right. Right.

Speaker 1: 16:49

And I think even when we talk about failure, it's such an interesting concept to me because I think as long as you remember your why and you're being true to yourself, you can never truly fail. I remember reading, oh my gosh, I forget the person's name. Um, it was a scholar that I was following, and he said, I don't fail, I just recalibrate. And I think that is like we don't.

Robert Green: 17:13

That's a word.

Speaker 1: 17:14

No, because I think I think uh so you it it will feel like failure if you're just chasing things that don't feel sincere to you in the first place. Um and I know it's capitalism, right? So we're trying to figure out how do we get it. You can see it.

Erica Rawls: 17:29

I don't care about capitalism. You can see when someone's being on a not being authentic.

Speaker 1: 17:33

Correct. Well, that's the thing. I'm not, yeah, no, I'm not disminishing that piece. I'm saying that that when people are trying to figure out how to balance, like paying bills, yeah, the expectation of the market. Um, because you know, let's be honest, like we're online, right? A lot. And so you're kind of seeing what folks are doing, and people kind of grab it, like online is being run by trends, right? Correct. So it's like one minute everybody's saying the same phrase, right? One minute everybody's doing the same TikTok dance. So annoying. So and then the expectation that and so also the expectation then that you would like people think like, oh, you're not doing as much as you can if you're not following every single trend. Right. Like, oh, Julie, you should, you know, you should do a TikTok dance holding one of your paintings or something. No one has ever said that to me, but I'm imagining this is a type of violet.

Erica Rawls: 18:23

You know, no people attracted to different, right? That's my thing. Well, always attracted to different and authenticity.

Speaker 1: 18:30

The real things are going to last. Because I think also people, the work that has a soul is gonna be what sustains us. Like it's not gonna be the things that are here today, going tomorrow. Right. Um and I think it is a challenge. So when we talk about having jobs and figuring out how to, because there are some artists, some people feel like, oh, you can't be like an artist with a job, you know. And I always tell people, I'm a full-time artist with a full-time job. Um it also allows me to be precious about my art. Right. Like I don't feel like I'm trying to create things that are on trend because I need to turn a painting around really quickly, turn an animation around really quickly so that I can pay a bill. Right. Um and I understand why people also feel like they have to do that, but it's like, how do we find the balance of existing, just following the trend, following the fad? Because the other thing is, you know, other stuff circ cycles back. So you like when you're real, your thing is anchored. Yes, right? Yes. You let folks catch up to you. Right. Like it's not the other way around. People don't even remember half of the foolishness that they're chasing. So it's like, why would I try to bend to that? Right? Like, so when we say like our audience will find us, when folks get tired of the foolishness, they're looking for the real to feed their soul. And if you got swept up in that, people will not be able to find you. They won't be to tell the real from the face. You won't be able to find yourself because you're gonna be so everywhere, chaotic, you're not gonna remember. And when sometimes I even have to tell, I had to do again, I create jobs. So I do social media strategy. And I have you create jobs just to be a very creative person. Let's say, because it's just a situation. So I agree with you with that. You know, it's that'll come to me and it's like, yeah, you don't even, you can't even dance. Why do you want to do that? Like there's everyone who would say, Hey, I want to dance. No, no, I'm gonna be like, nah. Are you okay? Okay, I'm gonna be like, well, let's do that and not do that. Okay, let's not do that. So I have to, I do have to do that. You know, I have to tell people a lot. I get it, but that's not even who you want. Like, you're if you have the client that you want that's gonna do the TikTok dance is the 21-year-old that's like trying to buy a house. You you don't even want that because you're not even gonna make any money off of that for real. Let's think about what we're producing right when we do these trends, what we the type of people that we're gonna try to get, you know. So that's why I try to say, like, stay true to yourself. Like, who do you really want in this situation? You know, it's really okay not to do those things. Yeah, it's not true. Because to your point, like when people are buying a house, it's a very serious decision. I need a very serious person. No, but no, we don't know. I'm not saying you can't have joy because I'm not a joke, but I think I remember following this therapist we have really good information, but it was really difficult for me to watch information because she was doing TikTok dances while the information was going over her head. And I just was like, that's very distracting to me. I can't resonate with that. You're talking to me about trauma bonding and you're doing one of them dances. And I just was like, that it's a it's an energetic misalignment here. And so I think that's okay. It is like it's really okay for you not to be, you know, if you feel compelled to do it, but I think for the folks who clearly do not feel compelled to do it or need to do it, yeah, like it's like it's okay, y'all.

Robert Green: 22:01

I love that you said need to do it because sometimes when you're walking in who you truly are, that's when you are the trendsetter. Right. And sometimes trendsetters don't realize that they've even set a trend until they've moved on to something else and they see that everyone is doing the dance or wearing the shirt or you know, doing the poetry or making the the content creation like you've already done. You're like, I did that five years ago. Right. Yeah, yeah.

Erica Rawls: 22:24

They're going into a space where I wasn't expecting to go today. So boy. So when you actually so when you sit, yeah, right. No, so when you sit down and you've started this creative business, did you go through like a strategy session with yourself? Did you say, okay, so this is what I like to do, and these are the people that I want to attract, and this is the message that I want to send? Or did you just be like, okay, um, this is what I like to do, and I'm gonna create it and I want to put it out there. Like, what was your process? Because I know there's a lot of creatives in your in your different spaces as a poet, right? As a business owner, as a um all the things, like a movie producer, um, and then you know, making cop um costumes and then the photo photography and the social media. You have to sit down, wash, and say have to. What did that look like to get to where you are today? Because there's people, so just so you know, the people that are watching today are gonna be in their 20s and 30s trying to figure out life, right? Yeah. Um, you are the auntie that they wish that you wish you had, and they're in this creative space and they want to make this money, right? And they know creative spaces are gonna be it's challenging, right? If you don't do it right. Right. So share the formula and how you got to where you are today.

Speaker 1: 23:39

I don't think there's a formula, unfortunately. I think um so for me, probably sitting in this chair wouldn't have happened without me finally publishing my first collection of poetry called Black Mermaids. And when I did that, it was like a whole world just opened up. Um, and then that led, you know, it was like that book came out in November 2016. Um, literally the day before Thanksgiving, um, I was trying to intercept a delivery of the books. Um, I was at my mom's house painting her dining room, getting ready for Thanksgiving. And I was like, okay, I didn't even tell people the book was coming out initially because I just had this really strange fear that somehow my publisher, my printer was gonna send me the books and like half of the text was gonna be upside down or something. It was wild. Um, it was a huge step. So I won't downplay like that early anxiousness that I felt about like I wasn't anxious about my work, but I was anxious about the product. Like I I felt like I was a solid poet, but then once you put it into a package and sell it as a thing, I was I was intimidated by that whole thing. But then once you know, you sell one book, it it just kept, you know, growing. And very quickly, you know, I was getting all of this positive feedback from folks. And a friend suggested that I should, because I was like, Oh, I have to do something else for young people because people thought, because it was like Mermaids was in the title, that it might be for younger folks. And I was like, it's nothing really wild in the book, but it's not written for children. And so I was like, Oh, I gotta do something else for young people. I was gonna do like um some type of journal or something, and then my friend's like, Well, I think you should just write a children's book. And I was like, Oh my god, why then I ever think about that?

Robert Green: 25:28

Yeah, right.

Speaker 1: 25:29

So it starts out first with just staying true to the work, like making really the formula is make the main thing the main thing. Like be true to your your why. And so for me, it was oh, I've been a poet for at that point. I think I was a poet for maybe about 15 years. It's time for me to think of my literary legacy, and so this is why this book was published. That was my why. I was true to that, and then I always wanted to have like a t-shirt brand or something. So that was November 20, um, 2016. By April 2017, I had one book, one t-shirt, and I had a pop-up shop. And people were very interested in that of that, you know. So then we fast forward a little bit, then the the children's first children's book comes out in 2017 as well. Um, and you know, there's a lot of personal stuff that happened in between that, but I think it is finding a way to be true to the art, lean into the ideas that speak to you. You're gonna get a lot, like like you people you get a lot of advice, yeah, right. And some of it's like, oh, people mean well, but it's just not, you know, it's not energetically aligned. It's not my why. Right, it's not my why. So I think the formula, to be quite honest, is always remembering your why.

Erica Rawls: 26:47

And not being afraid to say no.

Speaker 1: 26:49

And not being afraid to say no. Like, I think people are always giving us ideas and giving us ideas when they should be giving us money, but that's a whole nother, that's a whole nother thing. Not to see the time. But I say that to say, like, I know there's like, yes, is there a business side, right? Paperwork, taxes, and all of that. Yes. And that a lot of times, to be quite honest, sucks the entire life and fun out of this thing for a client. Yes, you know, visionary yes, you know, but so but I but I think on the on the formula side, really, like the remembering your why is what anchors the whole thing. Because this stuff gets hard. Yeah, you know, sometimes I'm just like, oh, am I producing things that nobody wants? Right. Right? Like it's not easy. Second guessing, yeah. You know, it's easy to, or just be like, oh, is it time for a pivot? Correct. And I think knowing the why determines the pacing of the pivot. Because it's like, oh, if if I'm not, if my assignment is not done here yet, like I have to stay the course. Um, yeah. And but if you energetically feel like, oh no, my assignment is done here, because I've also noticed like among some of us, sometimes we have a tendency to if people doubted us, then we feel the need to prove ourselves. But I think if we forget while we're doing it, we will overstay our our welcome in places that are not for us just because we want people to think that we can endure. Correct. No, I'm not afraid of looking like a failure because I know my why. So if it didn't work for any me anymore, then it's time for me to move on. Whether you think I want it not or not. Right. Some of us are too busy, like we want to look like we're winning, right? But we're actually losing because it don't even be. But you're not mailing, like you said, where we have your brief recalibrated. And it's a situation where it's like, I'm doing something that no one has done, you know? And that's another thing. How does it, I try to, because I kind of have to sit back sometimes myself too, and I have to be like, am I feeling at this, or did I do something that no one's done? I tried it, I've done it. I have to pivot now. It's my turn to do something different or do it differently or learn from the things that I'm doing. Because 100%, I mean, I'm gonna tell you the difference between us and other people is that we're doing it. You know, we do it. We tried on ourselves, we took a chance on ourselves, we taken the risk, you know, no matter what we look like. Yeah, some days it's like, okay, I dropped the link, 10 people, that's it. You know, so it's just a situation where you know it's like yes, but it's also a situation where it's like, I'm doing it no matter what. I'm doing it. And one thing I can say is I didn't do it. And how can I, you know, go from, okay, I could do this differently, I could do this differently. Maybe I do need help. Maybe I do need a team. Maybe the reason why it didn't go the way I wanted it to go is because I needed to take some time to get my mind right and really strategize and think about how I really wanted to do things or how I can improve. But, you know, I agree with that 100%.

Erica Rawls: 29:52

Hey, I'm hoping you're enjoying this episode of Coffee with E. I had to take 30 seconds to share with you one of our sponsors for this episode. Top Construction. They are a premier construction company located in Central PA. So if you live in Dolphin, Cumberland, Lancaster, and Lebanon counties, you want to check them out. Not only are they reliable, they are reasonable, and they get the job done. Now let's go back to the episode.

Speaker 1: 30:13

That's the hard thing about living in this big old world. There's so many moving parts you will never be able to see. Right. Right. And so like even not getting the win. And I think also being online a lot, it warps our sense of like capacity and volume and success because you're like, oh, 10 people responded. But as somebody who's been doing in-person events for like at least the last few years, baby, if if 10 people show up in person to something at 1006, that's a win.

Robert Green: 30:43

10 people under your picture look like 10 people. 10 people in a room can fill that room. It was a post where it was their accent.

Speaker 1: 30:50

It was like, this is what 10 likes looks like. And it was like 10 people in a room. And then it was like, this is what 100 looks like. 100 people, 100 likes look like. Yes, that's a lot of people. If I was, you know what I mean? When I was vending actively, and if if 10 people came to visit my table, if 10 people bought art, like that's incredible. Like that is a phenomenal experience.

Robert Green: 31:14

10 more people wearing your shirt.

Speaker 1: 31:15

Baby, if I got to talk to 10 people today that were curious about the what I was doing in the world, like that in-person connection, you know the capacity it takes to hold a conversation with 10 people in a row. Now we just lay in our bed and just keep replying and we forget. Like, no, that is crazy.

Erica Rawls: 31:33

How social media has warped our sense of what is um success is.

Speaker 1: 31:39

Yes. It's our interpretation of everything. Of everything. That's why us being creatives, I say that. You know, sometimes I have to sit back and be like, wait a minute, this is what I do. And if this was the goal, you got to remember your own goals a lot of times. Absolutely. Remember, because you know remember, remember, like, hey, is this goal a goal that I set, or is a goal that I set because other people thought I needed to set it or I need to look this way? And again, that's why it's like me, LeVarball said it right. Stay in your lane. And when you stay in your lane, you don't have to worry about anything else. You don't have to think about, you know, what's this person doing? How's that person doing it? Yeah, sometimes we like to get advice. Sometimes we like to, you know, have mentors, things like that. But it's people that aren't even knowing a day by day of what we do. That just like you said, they give the advice and not the money. And it's like, well, do who we need you to do. Yeah, I even I remember people reaching out and being like, oh, Julia, you need to, you know, Black Maries, you need to put it in this, you need to get to this person, this, this, and that. Um, and I'm thinking, but do you know those people? Can you connect? Like, like you cannot think that I did not think about this. You know, it's like, right, hey, put in a word for put in put in a good word for something. Like, I'm I'm open to the connection. Right. But if you just somehow gave me a good idea and didn't put nothing else behind it, you have to understand as a creative person, I am drowning in good ideas. Okay. Right. There is no shortage of good ideas. I always have a good idea.

unknown: 33:08

Right.

Robert Green: 33:09

No, for real.

Speaker 1: 33:10

Listen, we we eighth generation good idea over here. Like, we be a little bit more than that. Right.

Erica Rawls: 33:15

Um you got some funding, you got some help, some people, you know, something like that. I like to say that too. Well, let's talk about that then. So once it becomes, so I see um creatives, and I'm including myself in that because I do believe that in some aspects of the jobs that I do, I am creative, right? So there's a hobby stage, right? And then it becomes, okay, this is getting serious because it's starting to make money. So it's a business stage, right? Right. So then at what point do we turn that business into something, a bigger business? Or are we okay with keeping it a certain size? Are we saying that we need help to get it to that size? Because I heard us all say at some point that okay, there's um challenges. We want people to buy our stuff, right? We want people to support our art and our creativeness. So at what point do we make it from a business that, you know, pays the bills maybe every other month and I still have my full-time job, to okay, this is a business that's going to sustain my lifestyle so it can fund the life I truly want to live? Have we thought about that? And I would love to have a conversation around it because I think it's important to think about it that way. Because if it's a hobby and we're okay with it, that's great, right? But if we want to be a business and business owners in our creative spaces, so we wake up happy every day, like what does that look like for us? And is that possible for us? Yes, it is possible because we see other people that do it. But what are we in that space yet? Or is that something that um, I don't know, I don't know if I'm asking the right question or not, but I'm hoping that the hobbies and the vision and the creativeness that we have here, not just in this room, we are such creative people and we have the ability to change people's lives in such a large way, right? And given the right spaces, right, like other people, we would actually kill it. So does it mean for us to all come together in order for us to make that impact? Do we need more collaboration? Do we need more partnerships? Do we need more opportunities? What is it that we need in order to make this happen? Because y'all are giving me goosebumps just sitting here. And I'm like, man, I wish I could just, you know, elevate us all here in this room, right? And yet I can't. But maybe we know people that can connect, you know, we're one connection away from funding that that special passion project that we always dreamed of doing. Like you said, the black mermaids. Like, well, do you know the person? I was like, man, I wish I knew Oprah, because right now I'll be calling Oprah saying, hey, O'Neill, I have a Julia Mallory here, and she has the Black Mermaids, and she is dynamic and her stories and her poets and her just the whole messaging behind it needs to be seen with more people.

Speaker 1: 35:58

So I think I think that's a great question. Um so here's where I land on this. Please. Because I think it's um it's very complex. So when I first entered into publishing, I studied the industry and I was trying to figure out what do people consider to be a traditional sense of success in the publishing world. And so in my research, I found that most books that are published, traditionally published, do not sell more than a thousand copies. So say that again. Most books that are traditionally published do not sell more than a thousand copies. Okay. Over the life cycle of a printing. Really?

Robert Green: 36:36

And so, right, right.

Speaker 1: 36:40

So then I'm like, well, how are people making money in this industry, right? So I'm studying the career path of writers. I'm finding that, you know, a lot of people are writing books because it's important to them. There, a lot of them are hoping for financial success, but in a world where books may not sell more than a thousand copies, and that's just on the traditionally published side. So writers might have other full-time jobs, you know, they might be teachers or academics, and you know, um, people are also making money on the speaking circuit, right? Right. Um, doing appearances, um, other types of um uh brand deals, right, that they might have. So that was one facet, right? So then as I come into like the visual arts world and independent cinema, I'm like, oh, how are people making money? Yo, right? Yeah. So in like a lot of spaces, we find that they're like extremes, right? You got people that can like write their ticket and kind of have their say of how they want their career to go.

Erica Rawls: 37:37

Through a connection that they have, or just so you know, the the gods of above are just lending.

Speaker 1: 37:44

So this is the thing, like it, and it something like that. Something like that. And then this is the thing. You know, like consumers, the market is fickle. Right, right? You have one minute, everybody buying yourself. Yeah, and then also I've also seen where artists complain because it's this idea that, oh, just like musicians, oh, I made this painting, I made this song. Now everybody wants a near clone of the thing I've already done. But I'm an artist, I'm a creative person, I've already moved on. Right. Right? I'm energetically aligned somewhere else. So then do you still keep kind of catering to that audience because you had bills to pay, right? Or do you stick to the work that is your soul? And this is kind of the dilemma around professionalizing our talent, right? Exactly. That you have to figure out how do I sustain a life doing the thing that people are willing to pay for, right? And sometimes we are fortunate when there's an alignment with both of them, right? Right. And sometimes we fall out of favor with that. Right. I also think there's gonna be some things we do that are so magical, they will never scale in a way that's valued by capitalism. Right. I'm still gonna do that. Like I'm still gonna do that with work. Right. And so I think because I've seen this variation of what success looks like, are even again the optics, social media, see people that look like they're winning that life, doing the things in all the right rooms, and then we know they have a financial or material struggle. Yeah. Right behind the scenes. Right. So it has been for me, I honestly don't know.

Erica Rawls: 39:19

Like, I'm trying to figure that out because I this sounds like you do know, um, Julia, not to challenge you, but it does by what you're saying. You're just like, okay, yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:27

So I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like, I'm not willing to just look at it as being an all or nothing. I feel like a success because I still get to make a lot of the things that I want to make um in my own way, in my own time, and in my own rhythm. Now, when we talk about like what do we need, I think having like a cultural community gathering space in Harrisburg, like having a place-based thing, one of the things I do realize is I feel like our particular community does not have the creative infrastructure to sustain a lot of the big ideas that we also want to see here. Yeah. And so that is something that takes, I think, time, generations to build. Um and I yes, obviously we have the conversation sooner rather than later. But I know there's a a lot of reasons why that challenge persists in our community. But I think it's trying to figure out I don't know. I think I'm in a a season, a season of renewal, just kind of like doing what feels important, and maybe the work on the end will tell me why I'm like what it connects to. Right. Um grateful that I feel like I have the the space to to try things out and see what sticks because I I don't even if I did not sell another painting, I don't like I'm not a hobbyist just because I didn't sell the work.

Speaker 4: 40:55

Yeah, right.

Speaker 1: 40:56

You know what I mean? Like I feel like like I'm an artist, right? Um I am also creating work with the intention that it will be seen by people. Whereas I think like maybe a lot of times hobbyists are more like I'm just doing this just for myself. Like just I feel it's good to do this in my body, so I'm doing this um in a solo type of way. So I think that's a hard thing too, trying to like corral some of those terms or ways that we talk about what the work can do, how it can sustain us. Um and realistically, you know, people always say, Oh, there's enough of space out here for all of us. Yeah, if I create it, right? Like it's gonna be you know, it's gonna be enough of space for me out here if I create it, right? I create it, that doesn't also mean that there's a market that's gonna sustain it once it is created. And I think trying to find the nuance in those conversations I I'm trying to be very open about this because I also want people to know like I'm with you, like I I hear you. Like it's like you feel this desire to do the thing, but then it's not less valuable just because people can't put the value on it or they can't give you the value that you think it deserves. I agree with that. And so being transparent and being candid about this is also trying to let people know hey, baby, do your thing, but also know this thing may not pay your bills. It takes time, right?

Erica Rawls: 42:28

And their success needs to be defined by what they believe success is. I live me believe success. Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 42:34

So with the time was that's a good way to, yeah. Yeah, with the time was so important. So uh, as y'all know, I had a 3,200 square foot warehouse, right? So with that, it was like I was just in a space where I was like, you know, I got five months to get this together, get this up and running, do what I need to do. I was all my intentions are to create a space for people to come where they don't have space to create, just like I create or do their own thing. And you know, it is hard at times because it's like, how is this perceived by people? You know, it's like I was getting questions like, do we just come and just do this and do that? And it's like, yeah, whatever you want to do, honestly. Like, whatever you want to do. And I know even with your space, it's like one minute we play in space, we watch an insecure, we watch the movie. It's like whatever you want to do, and it's just like, you know, this is something where, and I don't want to say the area we're at doesn't have creatives, but it's a situation where it's like um, so monkey see, monkey do. And excuse me if that offends anybody, but it's 100% correct. So it's a situation where it's like people don't always feel comfortable with doing the things that are outlandish or they haven't seen before. That's why it's so amazing when we get to a point where it's like, whoa, she did that. And it's like, you can do it too. Right. You can do it too. I mean, we're creating avenues, we're creating spaces where we want other people to do it. And it's like, I don't want you to be afraid to do it, and I don't want you to have to do it how I did it. I don't want you to have to do it how she did it or he did it or they did it. I want you to do it how you want to do it. And I think in this area as far as Harrisburg, I think that that's is what I like to push more. You know, people hit me up, and it's like, um, they'll be like, hey, I want to start photography. I want to get into photography. And I'm like, you know, you don't have to be in a studio like me. You know, now if you want advice from me, I can only give you advice on what I know. I can give you advice on wildlife, near National Geographic, because I never did that before. You know, like I'm not in that space. You know, yeah, but I you know, and that's with leadership. You know, leadership is being able to influence and let people know, like, hey, this ain't, I don't know, but I can tell you what I do know, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I don't want, I'm not here to tell you everything that I don't know or a bunch of facts, snapple facts. I'm here to tell you what it is, right? Right. So yeah. So it's just a situation where it's like, I like to push creatives to say, you know, I have this space, I had this space for you to do what you want to do. What you create out of it is like I'll push it too. Listen, if you want to come in here and sit in here for six hours of a day and just talk on live all day, I get in your live too. I'll share your live, I'll do whatever. That's your creative space. So that's why I say again, and where we're at, it's like hobby to professional to whatever. I say, you never know. Because I started with my aunt's basement. I was in a one-bedroom apartment in the living room. I went to uh a storefront space in Carlisle and uh and 30 minutes away from Harrisburg, where I didn't even think people were gonna come. And I'm they did, and they was coming and we and we didn't. And that's why I thank God to just coming to back to Harrisburg, to just figuring it out again, to even to a point where it's like, you know, I'm getting another space. And it's like, I like this feeling of now what I'm gonna do. And now that I have help, and now that I have people where I've cultivated a creative community of people that I can trust, it's like, okay, I could be here and I know that my stuff is still gonna be good here and all of that. So it's just a situation where it's like, you know, again, my point to say is just create in your way. Create in your way. And whether it's a hobby to start out, to be a profession, you know, you never know. Like you're saying, you never know what it's gonna breed, what it's gonna birth. It's just important to create because again, unconventional things can bring a whole new trend, a whole new lifestyle. You don't know what life you can change. So that's why I say, like, I know it don't look, and my dad, I say this, shout out to my dad, but I say this because he wanted me to go to school. He wanted me to do everything how he wanted to do it. And now he's like, Oh my goodness, can you show me how to do that with your phone? Because he works for the Capitol Police and he does like PR work. So he's like, Can you show me? You got a cap cut? You got a cap cut, pro? Let me get on your cap cut, pro. And I'll be like, all right, man, here you go. Like, you know, so that's why I'm saying it's like you never know because my dad was so like, go to school, be on the books. And now he's like, Show me how you did that. You know, it's like, I need to make this voiceover. Tell me what I need to do. Should I get these mics? Should I do this? And it's like, you never know what you could breed, just even with the hobby or professionalism or anything that you do. So I just say, create. Please create with no expectations and just let it go from there. And yes, do be about your business and strategize. We do gotta get that money in.

Erica Rawls: 47:35

No, this time right to take two seconds to thank Allstate Insurance for sponsoring this episode. If you're looking for car, life, or casualty insurance, they're gonna be your ultimate insurance company. Thank you, Rob Shaw, with Allstate Insurance. Now, back to the show.

Speaker 1: 47:51

Yeah, because by the time I got into deciding if 106 was gonna be a good venture, I mean, like, I definitely by then didn't know had a business plan. You know, we're trying to figure out how I can generate revenue to sustain the space. And even with all of that planning, you know, things look a different way. You know what I'm saying? It's like, oh yes.

Erica Rawls: 48:09

You had a baseline though as to what you could potentially expect, but there's always gonna be something that you're gonna have to learn how to pivot.

Speaker 1: 48:15

Oh, it's it's a lot. I mean, it's it's it's it is it's that every day. Like I think um every minute, I promise. You're thinking about it. What I hear you also saying on Bray, too, is like folks needing like creative encouragement. Correct, right? Because I think that um even I'm always like, oh, 106 is always willing to have folks come in. Yeah, do type of, you know, you want to try out. I think it's a it's the right intimate size to launch an idea, to launch some type of creative vision, or even if people want to do clothing pop-ups, like I think this is a great mix of space. Right. Um and but getting folks to take me up on that, like getting folks willing to like put themselves out there just hasn't. I didn't, I thought it would be a lot more likely that people would take me up on the offer, especially as someone that is like trying out things and they've never seen it before. You are very inviting. I can tell you that. You're very inviting, you're very like, hey, I can help you. Let's do this. And I was listen, I'm the same way. Yeah, so it's like, hey, come in this face, but it's also a situation where it's like, do I have to show you? Do you want me to do it for you? Do you feel that way sometimes? Well, I think um uh I'll be honest. No, sometimes now I think there's a range of people that we encounter. Uh-huh. You know, I think there's sometimes people um have an energy that it's like, oh, um, if I could just be adjacent to the people, uh-huh, like even if I'm not actually doing the thing, yeah, that's a good, that's good enough for them. And then there are people I think that feel like um there's still a lot of self-doubt there. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like I think they're definitely trying to unpack the self-limiting beliefs. And um, you know, I was doing like during the pandemic, I was doing like all these workshops, and I was intrigued, you know, a lot of us were having these conversations around um just really getting back to a sense of ourselves, like before people started doubting us, before people make us feel like we wasn't good enough. And so people were bringing all of that type of baggage to this work too. Right. Um, so before people even meet us or they have these ideas, there's something in the back of their head that is um, and then also I think the internet doesn't help. No, because like the moment I feel like we used to also just like fail in private. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Like it was like, oh, I don't have to worry about somebody going live from an empty room. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like back in the day, it was just like, oh, they wasn't in the room. Yeah, yeah. Oh, nobody, it's fine. Life has moved on. Now every single move you make is being scrutinized. And I think for people who tr struggle also with being perceived, like a lot of those things, yeah. You know, people that want to do one or thing.

Erica Rawls: 50:58

I agree with that. Perception is important. No, I agree with that. So here's the thing, we challenge that. Okay. So other people's perception of who you are is their perception.

Speaker 4: 51:07

Right.

Erica Rawls: 51:07

Yeah, you have you and you know who you are, right? So be confident to fail forward. Because you're definitely going to do it. And here's the other thing fear should not allow you to be handicapped. Meaning, okay, if the one thing I don't like to hear is, oh, well, that'll never work around here. Okay, great. I gave you the idea. I'm gonna show you how it will work, right? Yeah. So there's some people that are foundation layers, right? You have other people that come in afterwards. Right. So the people that you're attracted to, you're attracted to, and you're attracted to are okay, I'm willing to take a risk, yeah, right, and start something that no one has ever done before in our area. And I challenge you all. I think we are in a space where we can actually get together and collaborate and make something impactful, right? Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 51:50

I think everything you're saying, what you just said, like will be how I'll how I'll top the when I want. When people say those things or when they express a self-doubt, you know, holding that compassionate space and hearing them out and trying to figure out why they do feel that way. But absolutely, my end goal in always gonna bring the do your work aside. I'm always gonna bring those talking points. Yeah, absolutely. I'm always gonna try to tell you like that vision was given to you for a specific reason. I'm always gonna bring all that energy and all that language out. So um I I I wholeheartedly agree with you. Yeah, no, I agree with you when I also think I will say this too, because I am wondering what does it look like to have more, like what are the specific, like the things that we can do to contribute to the building the creative infrastructure here? Like, what does it look like? Right. You know, have a suit for this thing that you were saying. You know, like we can support each other by the way.

Erica Rawls: 52:48

You have to, one, you can't have a limited mindset meaning. So one, you have to remove the crab and the barrel mentality, right? Right. Okay. So um there's the the struggle that I've been seeing around, right? And this is just me, a wiser, older person. Maybe you could correct me if I'm wrong, okay? Y'all can beat me up. I won't put it out there, okay? So one of the things I see as a challenge is when someone comes with an idea, right, and they they have a collaborative um spirit, right? They truly do. You can see it.

Robert Green: 53:19

Right.

Erica Rawls: 53:19

And they're willing to do whatever they can to help the rent people around. And they have the ability to cast a vision to the point where you're like, yeah, I'm on it. I'm ready to do it. When it comes to the mundane work, the actual execution, people fall off. And they're gonna say, it's your fault because of this, your fault because of that. Not understanding that, hey, look, I didn't say it was gonna be easy, right? But I say we're gonna get there, right? But you're gonna have to put in the work and not understanding that success is in the mundane. Once you go through the dirt, you're able to endure yourself in the clouds. But people always wanna be in the clouds. They don't want to go through that. Let's go ahead now. That look, why? So you're saying, what do we need to do? Have to put in that work. And I'm not saying people aren't afraid to put in the work, right? But what I'm saying is they may get tired and forget, okay, why are we doing this thing? So the person that came with the vision, you always have to speak, hey, remember I said it was not gonna be easy. Yeah, but we're gonna get it done. Now now we're gonna see how much you really want it. Right. You don't really want it, okay, cool. It was great knowing you next. And we have to be, we have to be okay. And if you come to the end by yourself, you have to be good in that too. I agree with that. Because not everyone's supposed to come with you.

Robert Green: 54:30

I agree.

Speaker 1: 54:30

Yeah, no, I think that no, what you're saying is absolutely how it goes down in real life. Right. You know, it goes down in real life. And I think we all get that. Okay. All of bending a space. I think, yeah, no, so you speaking to that is like speaking to all of us. I think the the process of like having the vision, right? And there is the infrastructure. Again, back to infrastructure, back to capacity. And yeah, capacity. And, you know, because even that's what having a plan. That is the thing, right? That's what back to having a plan helps because we can say, oh, this is what was required. This is what you said you were gonna do. This is what I'm doing. This is even when we talk about, you know, forecasting, like, oh, this is gonna take us six months, this is gonna take us six years.

Erica Rawls: 55:12

And it may take us um ten. It might take us. Because there are things that we cannot always predict or can foreshadow happening, right? Yeah. Until it actually happens. It's those that are able to pivot, right? Right. And those that understand, okay, yeah, this was not supposed to go straight line. If it does, there's something wrong, y'all. Right. There's something really. I mean, sometimes we get lucky.

Speaker 1: 55:34

Yeah, sometimes we get blessed and sometimes yeah, the favor is learn how Bob and Weaving, and I think I wholeheartedly agree. But I I I will say, I think that's where like the strategic planning piece is so critical. Yeah. Because it is that thing, like y'all remember again, we're more in like kind of um, what do you call it? Insta gratification. Ooh, right? Like we want to build the whole thing in one day. And it's just realistic. But I do think this is where now this is where we talk, you mentioned leadership. I think this is the role of um solid leaders is that you also give people some sort of material plan. Like people understand where I'm at. Like, oh, this is a three-month thing, this is a six-month thing. So people are not expecting something in six months that is really gonna happen on year six. And I think if we are not framing what that looks like we're working with people too, right? I understand how that's gonna be a disadvantage. And that's just true. You know, that's true. Like, so I think it's it's a um it's a range of things, right? And I know some people were scared to even tell people, like, oh, you know, it's gonna take six years, because some people from the jump are just intimidated and not gonna participate. But I think, you know, what does it look like? Oh, maybe I've I've been the part of things that's like, oh no, I can do three months of this. Yeah, I can give you six years. Yeah, right. But I think people knowing that coming in, right, it's a very different collaboration process. Because even collaboration. I was waiting for you. I'm trying to tell you, you don't know how many times me and Julia have sat down and talked about real collaboration, okay? Okay, I was like, So this is so important. No, no, no. That's why I let every time the word collaboration comes up and look at you, because I'm like, You're fine.

Robert Green: 57:24

Yeah, let's talk about having the diversity, the diversity built into your community. People like Julia.

Erica Rawls: 57:30

Yeah, okay. She's gonna break down collaboration for us and break it down. So here's what I always say about collaboration.

Speaker 1: 57:36

It's like, no, look, for right collaboration is if you if you're coming together to collaborate, you're more than likely gonna be building a magical third thing, right? Correct. So I'm a separate entity, you're a separate entity. Right. And when we collaborate, we're gonna create a third thing. A lot of times people were saying, oh, let's collaborate, but what they really want me to do is just push the thing through that they already have in motion. Right. That's not collaboration. That could be a form of partnership, right? That could be a favor that I'm doing for you. That could also be a service that you hired me to do for you. What I have found sometimes, especially when I was younger, I would meet a lot of people that would be like, oh, we should collaborate. But then what they really wanted was just another unpaid employee. Correct. That's not collaboration, right? So I think collaboration takes time, right? We can't just rush into it because we really have to be solid on what remains to stink about our individual things. Where does that fade away, and what are we building together?

Erica Rawls: 58:40

Well, those are questions that should be answered when someone comes up to you and says, Okay, let's collaborate. So, what does that look like to you? That's what I learned from you.

Speaker 1: 58:47

I say that all for because what does collaboration look like? But until you experience that a lot of us didn't know that that is what we supposed to say. Yeah. When you were younger, when you're more, you know, eager, yeah, people just wanting to work with you is impressive. Correct. So sometimes we just get in the situation. Or even I want to say younger, but I mean even just because sometimes even more experienced people, we can still get got under this. No, so we still because we're like, oh, so that's where you get got one time. You're like, okay, it's like a bigger, like it's a bigger name or a bigger project, and you're like, man, I don't, I see it. I'm excited to be on this. I mean, I'm trying to tell you. I get to get in the room. Yeah, get in, get in the room. This person's gonna be in the room. You're like, yeah, and then it's like, wait a minute, I'm doing about $1,500 worth of work right now. What is going on for the free? And I don't want my name on nothing but the check and the blessings. You understand what I'm saying? So that's I'm big on that. I, you know, I don't have to be on everything. So instant gratification, I had to learn that early. That it's like, you know, you don't have to put my name on it. And sometimes it's like, are you putting my name on it because what becomes behind it? Because the community that comes behind it, because the people that comes behind it, are you doing it? And if it is the case, just say that. That's all we're talking about. Right. Even though workers are. Even doing things pro bono was perfectly fine. Right. Like I have, I'm absolutely I'm happy to do it for the love than do it for the exposure, supposedly, that may not be coming. So I think it's really okay. Like if we are doing those things, but this is what good collaboration is, is having all those transparent conversations up front. And sometimes I even like I used to question, like, oh, maybe the people even sometimes bring you to the table because collaboration, collaborate is a sexy word. Some people toss it out without even really understanding. You know, collaborate, collaborate. And it's just like, oh yeah, like collaboration is incredible if done right, but it's not a thing that's done overnight. You know, collaboration means a rookie of marriage.

Erica Rawls: 1:00:43

Everyone wins, it does not mean it's equal, right? Collaboration means everyone wins. But how do you win is determined by how you define it, right?

Speaker 1: 1:00:50

Absolutely. That's what can be win from.

Erica Rawls: 1:00:53

Can I give your name because I know that you have a great community behind you who want this exposure? Yeah. If you say yes, then that's the collaboration. They win and you win, right? Right? Oh, I don't have to do anything else. Okay, great. Or you may say, yeah, sure, but that's gonna cost you X amount. That's how we want to collaborate. And there's nothing to rump.

Speaker 1: 1:01:10

I had people say, hey, I want to throw a party in your space, and we're gonna have about 500 people in here. And I'm like, all right, so I'm looking at it. I gotta clean up. I have to think about security for you. I gotta think about certain things. You know, sometimes it's just like, just say you want to rent the space. You know what I'm saying? Just say you want to rent the space.

Erica Rawls: 1:01:31

Can you donate or space? You better say that, Lorena. You donate the space, right?

Speaker 1: 1:01:35

And then I'll this is what I want to do for you on the other side of the exact in that way. Am I a sponsor? Am I doing this? But again, and this is where I like to tell people, and you know, being creatives, we are looking at it again, eager to just be like, man, they just want to work with me. I'm happy about that. But sometimes we have to remember like the work that you put in, it's like it's okay to get paid for your work or do the work, or you know, sometimes it's more for you. And then you're like, I don't want to feel scarred by doing what I love to do. Yeah. And I had to get in that space for a long time because I promise you, the favorite book was long. You know what I mean? It was looking like the dictionary. You feel what I'm saying? A medical one at that. So I'm just trying to tell you, it just got to the point where it's like, you know, are they doing this to other people? Are they doing this to me? Or is it just, am I showing too much love? Which is no such thing. But what I'm saying is it's just a situation where it's like, what are you getting from this? Because you're still doing the work. And I don't want to be scarred with what I do business-wise, or even what I love to do. I don't want to keep being like, my worth is my worth. I know my worth. Okay, we I don't want to keep doing that on the internet. I don't want to keep doing it to people in person. I don't want to keep saying, because if you don't know it by now, then it's like, all right, we get it. You don't have to keep proving it or saying it. But it's a situation where again, you do have to say no. You do have to say, um, I'm not really looking for exposure right now. Um, you know, I'm not in the capacity to offer that free. And I, you know, I think it's um, I just also want people to just be more fair. I just want y'all to be just more generous. I want y'all to share. Like, I think it's very different if we're like, I want y'all to share. Like, no, seriously, like like sometimes you do things. It's nothing more frustrating than feeling like, oh wow, like I was able to do this thing for free. I'm grateful. But then when y'all got a budget, you didn't call me. And I just think that's unkind. Like, that's not generous. You can't build community like that. I can't. I agree. You know what I mean? So when you get, you know, when you get it, you gotta split it with your people. And I think when we do the opposite of that, that does not build trust. That doesn't build sincerity. I agree. And that is like a killer of true collaboration and true community. And I think that's what okay.

Erica Rawls: 1:03:48

So when they come up, when they finally get to that place and they come back to collaborate, they're not offering.

Speaker 1: 1:03:55

Oh no, I'm sorry. It's like now it's time to hire people and you didn't think of me. Because I was getting paid. Yeah, baby.

Erica Rawls: 1:04:02

Okay, like that.

Speaker 1: 1:04:03

Now it's like now we're getting paid, and it's like I want y'all to like if you're asking somebody to do something for free. I also only want you to reach out to people who you will pay to do it. Correct. Like, don't reach out to the people that are just gonna do it for free. If I'm not good enough to be paid, then I'm not good enough to work for free either.

Robert Green: 1:04:20

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 1:04:21

Like, so I think if if that's the mindset, then we should be thinking about that, right? Be more true in our in our intentions when we're reading out to people. Because that is community, and I think that's important. Yes, you know, that is 100% community because it gets to the point where it's like you don't want to, even as a leader, because this is the most important thing. And even as I get into learning about leadership and being a leader, because I get I have everybody's a leader, you know, influence, absolutely, everybody's a leader. If you have some type of influence, some type of measurement. Yeah, well, not everyone's a leader. No, but I'm saying this if you have some type of influence, not everyone is a good leader, but everyone is a leader. Everybody will be put in a position where they gotta lead something at some point. But I'm not saying a good leader. Yeah, not everybody's a good leader, which is why we have to learn about you know the power we possess. Influence is thrown around so easily now where it's like you're an influencer, you're an influencer. So there's a difference between influence and correct. But understand, right? If you're a leader, you have some type of influence over people, right? Absolutely.

Erica Rawls: 1:05:22

Right. So every leader has influence, yeah. Correct. Every influence is not a leader.

Speaker 1: 1:05:28

Okay, sure.

Robert Green: 1:05:30

Let's challenge it.

Speaker 1: 1:05:31

No, let's do that. No, listen, I'm saying this because it's a situation. We like a little debate. Everybody is you can be a leader, but are you a good leader? There's plenty of people that weren't good leaders. I mean, I ain't trying to, I'm not trying to say the concept of leadership, though it's an interesting concept to me, but at a bare minimum, like it's not it's not universal. Like, you might be a good leader over here, but you may not be good leading over here. Right, right. Like, like that's what I'm saying. And I think so. I think to the point of like maybe what Erica, like I well, I won't, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but like a person might have influence, right? Which means they're leading people to do a certain thing, but maybe outside of that particular space, maybe, you know. Yeah, but so they're not good leaders, right? Exactly. So I totally get what you're saying. Thank you. But what I'm seeing with this is, right, we have to learn and understand the community we have, right? So if Julia is great at poetry, I'm not about to ask Julia to uh, hey, Julia, can you make this graphic for me? You're doing not saying you're not good at that, I'm doing graphics.

Robert Green: 1:06:28

I know she does everything. She does everything, y'all.

Speaker 1: 1:06:34

Too many hats, but no, but no, I'm just we just have to understand that, you know, within our community. So I just think that that's so important. The point I was trying to make is it's just important using people in the ways that we're supposed to use people. And I mean not use them as far as like exploit, but utilize. Yes. So that's why I'm saying it's like don't call me again, and I'm gonna harp on this one more time. Don't call me when you just because you think that I'm gonna do it for free because of the love of my heart. Use me in the way that I'm supposed to be used. Because if you know I'm doing 20 other things for the community and I have a building and I'm doing this and I'm doing that, that time can go into that. Why would you call me? You know what I mean? I don't think people don't understand with all due respect that like the consideration that you see, if you're asking me, you can't think you're the first person that has asked me. Like a lot of people, the same people are always getting asked to do the same, right, you know, the same thing. So sometimes, unfortunately, just people don't have the capacity. It doesn't mean we don't have the love or the sincerity or the care. I care so much that I wouldn't hate to give you a um a careless experience. Like I don't want to be careless with your time or your community. So, you know, if I don't have the capacity, I'm gonna also have to, you know, graciously decline. Agree. But that feels good sometimes, right?

Erica Rawls: 1:07:51

Because people see you for the true creative that you are. They're like, oh, I need this done, or I need a you know, a great poetry, or I need whatever, right? Or can I use your space? They're coming to you, right? So they see you. So the work that you're doing, everyone has seen it. And to be able to say no because I don't have the capacity, sometimes that fills my cup. Like, you know what? Um, wow, I'm really blessed over here. I can't, I can't take on anybody else. So, you know, unfortunately, I can't, and yet I know someone else that can. Absolutely. So being a recommendation. Always make a recommendation so that they know that okay, not only is she an expert in her field, but she knows someone else when she's not available that can help me at the same level. Because one thing I don't do is attach my name to someone that does not do the same level work that I'm gonna do. I have the confidence that people know that. So kudos to you and all y'all if you have the capacity to be like, no, you have to turn people away. No.

Robert Green: 1:08:46

And that also affirms the importance of community, of knowing that you can call another photographer and make sure that they're gonna give it the insane level.

Erica Rawls: 1:08:54

And if I find out you're good, I'm telling everybody. I'm doing it. Everybody, oh, you know what? Oh, you need the okay, you need to call this person. You know what? No, you need to call this person. Like, I want to make sure that your pipeline is built up as much as I possibly can because I know you have excellent work. I do. And I'm just gonna let everybody know about it. I like that. Everybody knows about it. Yeah, so my stomach's growling. We past coffee time, y'all. We are past coffee time. So, any final thoughts? This was a really good coffee chat. Y'all have me sweating on the edge of my seat. I would have respectfully, I disagree. I disagree and called out. Like, listen, I like this listen. This is so good.

Speaker 1: 1:09:33

We gotta learn how they are. No, I I love representative range of thought. I think that's important. Yeah, right. You know what I mean? I think that's like we're not like we don't have one brain. Yeah, yeah. Right. So I think it's beautiful that if we can give people a variety of perspectives, they can, you know, people can figure out like what works for them. Right. Because one thing I have found in life is that fortunately, I feel like there isn't a formula. You know what I mean? We all have our own unique journeys, we've all gotten our own unique no's that have rerouted us to what we're supposed to be doing. And I think that if we can offer a range of what that might look like. Like, oh, you might have a variety of journeys. People I think feel it feels more real. Like, you know, there's a there's a space out here for me, especially after failure. Yeah. Right? Like I try to tell people like you know, I got laid off from like four jobs in a row. You know what I mean? So there's gonna be, I'm gonna just look at things a little bit different when that's your when that's your experience. Right, you know, in relationship to to what work really means, you know. But yeah, I think it's it's great that we have a little bit of back and forth. Yeah, yeah.

Erica Rawls: 1:10:48

Dirty Dog hauling, thank you so much for your sponsorship. If you're looking for junk removal company, they are the go-to company, whether you have a small job or a large job, and even excavation, you want to check them out. They are reasonable and also timely and effective. Dirty Dog hauling. Now back to the show.

Speaker 1: 1:11:08

It's the process, you know what I'm saying? So it's just a situation where it's like, you know, again with failure. It's a process, but it failing forward is 100% a real, a real thing.

Robert Green: 1:11:19

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 1:11:20

Taking that, pivoting, understanding I can change this and also knowing that you can be renewed at any time. You can redeem yourself, you can do different things, you can try it again better. Like the life that we have, thank God for it, you can just continue to strive, and you don't have to just sit and just dwell in the failure, you can just continue to keep going. So that's again, you know, even with social media and things like that. I'm big on telling my stories, failures, and and successful stories, things like that. But it's just a situation where you know, again, authenticity. And I've always been in spaces where I'm like, y'all know me. I'm gonna be loud in the room. I'm gonna be loud and right.

Robert Green: 1:12:02

I'm be loud and right.

Speaker 1: 1:12:04

It's like, but no, but I'm gonna be myself in the room. I'm just gonna be that person. So I just think you know, as a your journey starting, if you're a hobbyist or if you're a professional, if you're doing this for 10 years, 20 years, if you want to restart something again, if you want to pick up something back up, and now you're selling something again or doing it again. I just say, like, you can do that, you know. Just make sure the why and you know your why. Because that was the important part with that. Absolutely. Knowing your why is gonna keep you focused, it's gonna keep you on track, it's gonna keep you feeling like this is what I'm doing. I'm happy to do it. So that's right. Mr.

Erica Rawls: 1:12:43

Green, they took up all the airs of the city. Listen, I know that that's what you're gonna do.

Robert Green: 1:12:46

But a lot a lot we go. But I also think that you have to be confident when going into these communal spaces because your tribe will find you. I have to be honest in saying that I knew both of these women before social media, but we got to know each other a lot better and a lot in a I'd say a much more authentic space through social media, whether it's supporting each other's events or you know, saying, I really like this, what you did, or even through collaboration. I think that social media can work for you and it can also push you into spaces where when you're getting those ideas out of your head and into whatever media form that they may need to come out, is really when you're standing in your purpose as a creative. So if you affirm what your why is and then you build a community of people who are like you or people who can help change you or edify what you have going on, I think it's very important to find your people and and to hone in on your why. Some of my best friends have been made on social media, and these are people that I knew, you know, growing up in the community. And I think that even leaning into the importance of our online personalities paired with who we truly are, yeah, has really kind of helped affirm that creatives can make money, we can make spaces, we can create a lot more than just the paintings and the art that we put forth.

Erica Rawls: 1:14:01

Yeah, and to the young, ambitious women that are listening to this, I want to share or watching, right? I also want to share. When I was in my 20s and my 30s, I struggled with the why. Right? What does that word actually mean? Like what does that actually mean? So what fills your cup helps me out a lot. What you know what drains you, and you know what fills your cup. What gives you energy, right? What takes energy away from you. Your why is connected to the thing that fills you up, whether you know it or not, right? So if it's serving people, that's your why. But what avenue are you gonna use to serve the people, right? Right? Is it through creative, right? Is it through um medical? Is it through real estate? Is it through there's so many different ways? So I love that y'all are saying why, but I remember when I was trying to figure it out, like, what's my why? What exactly does that mean? Right? And then when I really dialed it in, like, what gives me goosebumps?

Robert Green: 1:14:59

Yeah, right?

Erica Rawls: 1:15:01

What gets me excited in the morning? Yeah. And that's what's gonna sustain you in those moments when you just have nothing else to give, right? And if you don't, stop, take a break, but then you know you're gonna be excited the next morning because that's what's gonna drive you. So I appreciate all three of y'all. Thank you for having us. Thank you for having coffee with me. Absolutely. Hey, thank you so much for watching this podcast and supporting our real estate business. Did you know because of those two things that we were able to create the Phoenix Foundation, a foundation that helps people that are survivors of domestic violence find permanent housing. We provide them down payment and closing cost assistance. It's because of the support and the business and the just the rallying of the community that allow us to do this. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. And guess what, y'all? Every time we get a view, a like, or subscribe, that allows us to do more big, impactful things like the foundation in our community.